hype_city ([info]hype_city) wrote in [info]feminist,
2007-12-11 11:58:00

Come on guys!

I work at my university's women's center and we have been discussing the word "guys" (as in "Bye guys", "Come on guys", "You guys..." ect, you get the point). This has really opened my eyes to how often the word is used, and it is starting to really bother me. In all my classes, which are mixed gender, the teachers all say "guys" to refer to the class. What about the females?! What bothers me even more is when a woman refers to a group of women as "guys".

I'm not sure about other languages, but I know in Spanish a group of mixed gender is referred to as "Ellos", the masculine form.


How does everyone feel about the word "guys" being used to refer to a mixed group of women and men or just a group of all women?
Do you have any alternative words? Y'all, everyone, ect?
It is a very hard habit to break, do you find yourself accidentally saying it?
Do you correct other people when they call you a "guy"?


It really bothers me. It is just another example of how deep sexism runs into our culture/language.

I'M NOT A GUY!!

Other opinions??

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[info]angabel

December 11 2007, 19:12:04 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  December 11 2007, 19:13:26 UTC

I find myself using "guys" a lot, but more often than not, I refer to everyone as "kids", which may be just as seemingly oppressive? (I'd be saying the same thing as someone who might say "guys" all the time; that I don't really mean "kids" in the "children" sense, and I'm called "kid" as well.)

ETA: I have less of a problem with "guys" probably because the gay/straight alliance culture most of my friends belong to use words like "whore" and "skank" and "hoe" (and "bitch" and "cunt" to a lesser extent, and not in a positive manner usually) far more often than "guys", and those I actually do consider offensive.

[info]thekumquat

December 12 2007, 20:38:09 UTC 4 years ago

When I was a child (early 80s; not that long ago), the word 'kid' was considered pretty offensive, because you were comparing the child to a young goat.

'Guy' used to mean someone dressed oddly, like a guy for putting on the bonfire on 5 November [google Guy Fawkes or Bonfire Night if you aren't from the UK, but a guy is a dummy made out of old clothes stuffed with leaves etc].

e.g. in The Doll's House by Katherine Mansfield:
"Lil, for instance, who was a stout, plain child, with big freckles, came to school in a dress made from a green art-serge table-cloth ... Her hat, perched on top of her high forehead, was a grown-up woman's hat,...turned up at the back and trimmed with a large scarlet quill. What a little guy she looked! It was impossible not to laugh."

So while 'guy' is a jokily-insulting term originally used by men for their friends, there's no reason why it can't apply to women.

[info]lazerbug

December 11 2007, 19:16:35 UTC 4 years ago

I'm much more conscious of my use of "guys" when referring only to women and when talking to a group of people who identify as feminist (I got yelled at once; it was an eye-opening experience). However, I often alternate between "guys," "my people," and "you all" (I'm not from the South, so I prefer not to use "y'all") when I teach my college freshmenpeople. However, when I use "guys," I always mentally kick myself because I'd rather not use it, but it's sometimes difficult to create rapport in a classroom by using personal terms that students aren't used to -- and the freshfolks seem comfortable with "guys." It's on my mental list of things to change about my teaching, though.

[info]eisakka

December 11 2007, 20:52:19 UTC 4 years ago

I went to an all-women's college where in-coming students were referred to as "first-years" (or "firsties"). I absolutely hate the word "freshman" and will only use the gender-neutral term "first-year."

[info]moveablefeast

4 years ago

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[info]wildeabandon

4 years ago

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[info]bluhairedmonky

December 11 2007, 19:18:43 UTC 4 years ago

I really don't think the term "you guys" is offensive. I live in NJ, and that term is used quite often here. It doesn't bother me at all.

[info]gloriousburdens

December 11 2007, 19:19:31 UTC 4 years ago

It does not bother me in the least, whether someone is addressing a mixed group, a group of all men, or a group of all women. I have no reason to care.

[info]kekekekekekeke

December 11 2007, 19:20:59 UTC 4 years ago

i like your icon

[info]gloriousburdens

4 years ago

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[info]fruhlings

4 years ago

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[info]kekekekekekeke

December 11 2007, 19:20:10 UTC 4 years ago

I use y'all.

[info]viruswshoes

December 11 2007, 19:24:12 UTC 4 years ago

And three cheers for that! Born and raised in the Deep South, I went without "y'all" in my vocabulary for a number of years because I was ashamed. No more. :)

[info]fancymcsnazsnaz

4 years ago

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[info]shemale

4 years ago

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[info]fancymcsnazsnaz

4 years ago

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[info]nymphaeales

4 years ago

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[info]amaterasu_no_ki

4 years ago

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[info]emzebel

4 years ago

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[info]kitkatkaboodle

4 years ago

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[info]kekekekekekeke

4 years ago

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[info]kitkatkaboodle

4 years ago

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[info]rosehiptea

December 11 2007, 19:20:41 UTC 4 years ago

To be honest about my feelings about it: It doesn't bother me, and I have even addressed groups of women as "guys" occasionally because I don't always think about it at all.

That said, I wouldn't call an individual woman a "guy" so it is sexist and definitely something to consider.

I also don't find it that hard to avoid the use of the word "guys." "Everyone" or "the people at work" or similar phrasings work fine.

The issue in Spanish and other languagues (I was a Spanish major in college) has made me wonder how women from other countries feel about that. The only teacher I had who ever addressed it was a woman who was not from a Spanish-speaking culture either.

[info]wildeabandon

December 11 2007, 19:22:28 UTC 4 years ago

In my head, at least, it's a gender-neutral term. But whether that's because language has evolved to the extent that that's generally the case, or whether it's an example of sexism being inherent in the language I'm not entirely sure.

[info]amaterasu_no_ki

December 11 2007, 19:34:40 UTC 4 years ago

Yeah, that's pretty much the way I feel -- 'guys' seems gender neutral to me.

[info]lucystag

4 years ago

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[info]conuly

4 years ago

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[info]thegreatcurve

December 11 2007, 19:23:47 UTC 4 years ago

I really try to use gender neutral terms when referring to groups of people.

When I'm talking to a mixed group (e.g., when I'm teaching) I say "folks" or "people."

I'm also a fan of using "their" instead of his or her. I've gotten into debates about whether it is proper (grammatically, linguistically) to use "their" in that sense. I choose to. I WOULD use "ze" and "zir", however, I find that I always have to explain what the hell they mean and I find myself annoyed at having to tell SPell Check to ignore it. So grammatically correct or not, I'm a fan of "their."

Sometimes I slip. It's so common to hear "guys" for everything, I sometimes ignore it. I sometimes just don't have the time or patience to explain to the user of the word "guys" why it is annoying to me to be described as such.

[info]wildeabandon

December 11 2007, 19:40:01 UTC 4 years ago

My view on "their" as a gender-neutral singular pronoun has always been that if it's good enough for Shakespeare, it's good enough for me.

[info]liminalia

4 years ago

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[info]latentfunction

December 11 2007, 19:25:41 UTC 4 years ago

I say y'all. But then I'm from Texas; it's been my experience that y'all is the norm and guys the exception.

[info]maybe_sparrow6

December 11 2007, 19:26:10 UTC 4 years ago

Guys is pretty much gender neutral at this point. Ya'll is my favorite, but living in New England and having a weird accent I can't really get away with it.

[info]before_moonrise

December 11 2007, 19:26:31 UTC 4 years ago

I just read something about this and was thinking about it too. I do see the issue with women accepting masculine pronouns (uh...that's a pronoun, right?) while many men would not be so accepting if they were referred to as gals, or at least, I don't often see it happen in a non-patronizing way. In the article I read, "gyn" was suggested as a funny alternative which I have used as a novelty but probably never will actually embrace, mostly because no one would know what I was talking about!

Idk, I certainly don't see myself addressing the issue with anyone other than people who already love to critique stuff like this; I think pointing it out anytime I heard it--the way one woman mentioned in the article does--would really turn people off when there are more important issues to discuss. I haven't decided if I will continue using "guys," but if I choose to stop, I know it will be incredibly difficult; it serves as such a friendly, casual, and sometimes affectionate term! I heard "folks" described as a possible replacement...right.

[info]amaterasu_no_ki

December 11 2007, 19:33:27 UTC 4 years ago

I use the word "guys" and know plenty of feminists who do to refer to a group including both men and women, or even just women, and don't get offended when a group I'm in is referred to as "you guys." I'm in the South (U.S. that is), so we use "y'all" frequently too.

I like studying languages and it seems to me that a lot of Romance languages use the masculine plural to refer to a group of mixed genders. However, languages in other groups don't seem to. The Dutch and German don't -- they have a neutral term [jullie and ihr respectively] that refers to more than one person in the second person. Japanese doesn't, either -- they append a neutral term [-tachi] to the end of the name of a member of the group. Beyond that -- I know that language can be a powerful tool, but it seems to me like it's something petty unless it's clear that the person using the term is doing it deliberately.

I go to a women's college. Right now in my courses I have mostly female professors. One of them wouldn't dream of using the word 'guys' even to refer to males (she's in her early 70s), but of the other professors I have they use it liberally. The only professor that I have who worries about it is also my only male professor. He's used to teaching at co-ed colleges and this is his first semester at Spelman, so a lot of times in class we hear him go "Okay guys...girls...ladies." About midway through the semester, after hearing this for the zillionth time (poor guy :D), one of my classmates piped: "You know, you don't have to keep correcting yourself. I think we're all okay with 'guys'." The rest of the class murmured in agreement.

[info]stardance

December 11 2007, 20:46:07 UTC 4 years ago

Yeah it bothers me a lot more when (usually men) say "guys and girls" or like your professor "guys...girls...ladies" because it shows they're focusing more on the gender of the people in the room than the task at hand.

[info]scorpi084

December 11 2007, 19:34:26 UTC 4 years ago

I can't say it really bothers me, or that I make an effort to not use it.

I usually say DUDE or DUDES instead. Which, if you have a problem with guy/guys, you probably wouldn't like any better.

[info]amaterasu_no_ki

December 11 2007, 19:37:50 UTC 4 years ago

I totally use dudes too.

[info]fruhlings

4 years ago

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[info]hotcoffeems

December 11 2007, 19:47:38 UTC 4 years ago

I thought I'd be in the minority in thinking of it as gender-neutral, and using it with some frequency (I also use y'all -- I am from Georgia -- and dudes as well.) So it cheers me to see that to many, it *is* becoming gender-neutral. Of course, it's not altogether there yet (hence its discomfort to you and others...), but I suspect it really is getting there. And why not?

"Guy" is really kind of a goofy-sounding word, and that helps.

[info]paperclipchains

December 11 2007, 19:57:09 UTC 4 years ago

I use guys to refer to groups of people and I think it's fairly gender neutral when people do that.

[info]crafting_change

December 11 2007, 23:56:41 UTC 4 years ago

but why?

[info]jennifer0246

4 years ago

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[info]crafting_change

4 years ago

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[info]bridgegirl

December 11 2007, 20:18:55 UTC 4 years ago

Another vote for y'all! :)

[info]brnmsc37

December 11 2007, 20:28:45 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  December 11 2007, 20:30:04 UTC

Honestly, "guys" isn't part of my vocabulary. I must use it sometimes, but not very often. I think it's because I had a professor in undergrad who would use it a gendered term because she was trying to the term "gals" to be popular again. :)

When I teach I use primarily "folks," with occasional sprinklings of "people" or "everybody/everyone."

ETA: I also like y'all only because English doesn't have a second person plural form and I like that one the best of the possible ones I've heard. People think it's funny to hear "y'all" from a native Minnesotan, however. Oh well.

[info]jabuticaba

December 11 2007, 20:37:43 UTC 4 years ago

I use it. I see why some might be offended, but to me, the plural has been stripped of all gendered meaning. The meanings of words change over time, so... I'm pretty okay with it.

Of course, if someone asked me not to refer to them as part of "guys", I would be most happy to do what they preferred.

[info]eee_eph

December 11 2007, 20:55:21 UTC 4 years ago

I'm British, female, and feel included if someone uses the term 'guys'. Maybe it's because it's such an Americanism? For whatever reason, it doesn't feel as gendered to me.

[info]purplelizzy

December 11 2007, 21:08:39 UTC 4 years ago

Ditto. I think I'd find it more offensive to be called a girl. It's very common in the UK for women to refer to each other as girls, as in "I'm going out with the girls' tonight." At least "guy" refers to an adult.

[info]movingtargets

4 years ago

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[info]celticdaisy

December 11 2007, 21:00:08 UTC 4 years ago

I'm actually really surprised by the number of people who are comfortable using 'guys'.

I try to avoid using it but I know I often slip up. Given the history of linguistics and the tendency in the past that all humans are held to the male standard (Mankind, mailman, policeman, etc) I'm extremely uncomfortable using 'guys' to refer to a whole group of people of mixed genders. Even though it's generally thought of as a gender-neutral term by mainstream society, its context makes me really uncomfortable.

I prefer 'folks', because it encompasses both men, women, and trans folk. I know that at my University womyn's centre there are people who are uncomfortable being referred to as 'ladies' because of historical context, and 'girls' because it is infantalizing. I'm personally uncomfortable with 'girls' because I look about 5-7 years younger than my age and I find it's often used in a patronizing way towards me. We definately make an effort to avoid 'guys' at our centre.

[info]emzebel

December 11 2007, 21:38:35 UTC 4 years ago

Same here. I'm not offended if someone refers to "you guys" and I'm part of that group, however, I do not think that it is universally gender-neutral language at this point, and I prefer to use terms that are more clearly gender neutral or to tailor my language to my audience. Ergo, a group of casual female friends may get refered to as "gals", and my husband and son as "guys" in my lingo.

I am particularly intreagued by this idea of guys as neutral, given the extent that a woman or girl being "one of the guys" - i.e. transcending her femaleness to be accepted as an equal or non-sexual companion by *men/boys*, where "guys" clearly connotates "male" - is very much a part of social gendered discourse in the US.

[info]sassy_red_head

4 years ago

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[info]thekumquat

4 years ago

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[info]movingtargets

December 11 2007, 21:10:27 UTC 4 years ago

I still use it sometimes since it's been a part of my vocabulary for as long as I can remember, but in the last few years I try to avoid it. as others have said I really do think of it as one of those male terms masquerading "gender neutral."

I'll often use a female term ("ladies" or "gals" or "girls" or "women") to refer to a mixed-gender group, though pretty much only in circles where I know it's not going to turn into a big argument (yeah, it's a good opportunity to challenge the woman=insult stuff, but I don't usually have the time or energy to enlighten everyone I meet, y'know?)

similarly, in french papers (I write french but rarely ever speak it) I almost always use "elles" to refer to mixed-gender groups. only ever had a prof challenge me on it once.

[info]amaterasu_no_ki

December 11 2007, 21:35:23 UTC 4 years ago

LOL, when I used to take French I would use both ils and elles to refer to mixed-gender groups, and my teacher just laughed at me.

[info]lick_your_heart

December 11 2007, 21:10:57 UTC 4 years ago

In my own personal bubble, "guy" just means a person, and "guys" just means a group of people, we say things like "she's a great guy", and it's not meant to be a statement or anything.

[info]finding_meggan

December 11 2007, 21:13:04 UTC 4 years ago



In Romanian, if you adress a group of people which includes more than one gender, you also use the default male plural version.

I try not to use the term "guys," I generally use "people" or "you all" (not y'all, because I from Los Angeles and not the south).

[info]secret_x_stars

December 11 2007, 23:13:46 UTC 4 years ago

BUNA SEARA.

[info]finding_meggan

4 years ago

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[info]finding_meggan

4 years ago

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[info]unkempt

December 11 2007, 21:16:47 UTC 4 years ago Edited:  December 11 2007, 21:20:25 UTC

I use it no matter what gender I'm addressing and don't have a problem when people say "you guys" to me - I feel included, not excluded. I also have been known to say "I'm a reasonable man" or "I'm a nice guy" and that sort of thing too, thou - I've chosen to use gender-specific phrases as such for both genders and althou I've confused people before with it, it works for me. I feel that by expanding the "you guys" gender-inappropriate phrase to include "I'm a nice guy" and so on, I'm making sure that the same rule applying to "you guys" applies across the board... if that made any sense at all. I'm female, by the by.

[info]smartypantsnyc

December 11 2007, 21:17:05 UTC 4 years ago

It's interesting, I was just thinking about this the other day. I could be deluding myself, but I actually think this may be one case where the word itself has evolved culturally to have a non-gendered meaning. That is, I don't think I'm alone in realizing immediately, when I hear someone say "you guys," that in no way does the speaker necessarily mean the group is all male. *shrugs*

<3
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