aimantselden ([info]aimantselden) wrote in [info]feminist,
Hi everyone,
I can't really take many more of these articles about the plights of women in the global south. I read this story in a text I read for a class that took on looking at gender in a transnational perspective.

In the 80s, white feminists from the US went to a village in Kenya to do humanitarian work. They saw that the women in the village were walking two hours everyday, there and back, in order to get water from a well.Why were the women in the village forced to walk so far in order to get water? The white feminists saw this walk as a result of the systematic oppression of women in the village. So they decided that the money they had for their humanitarian work would be invested in building a well in the village.

Several months later, the women from the US came back to the village in Kenya to see the result of their good work. They found that the women in the village chose to walk the two hours to the well that was farther away everyday even though there was a well close by. Well, it turns out that the two-hour walk everyday was a time when the women of the village could talk amongst themselves. Going to the well close to the village would take away those two hours of camaraderie and socializing.

Misogyny and patriarchy are expressed to varying degrees in different ways in different places. My experience as a white female college student in the United States is unimaginably different from that of a woman in a Kenyan village. Historically, white feminists' efforts to help third world women have often done more damage than good. And who benefits from having a bunch of white feminists way over in in Africa "saving" the women? The white men in offices and in corporations and in their houses who these women would be protesting and giving shit to if they were in the US.

[edit: One commenter ask that I be more specific about what I posted this story in response to. I wanted to give an example of the dangers of white western feminists working in the global south. There are many other examples of these kinds of happenings. I hope that I and other white feminists in the West can have a conciousness of this history in whatever we do. I have to work within a history of white colonists in the global south who were also claiming to "help" the women. I feel that because there are posts in this community about women in the global south, every person here, including myself, should be extremely concious of this history.]

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  • 33 comments

[info]stephzilla

August 20 2007, 07:36:39 UTC 4 years ago

Makes me think of The Feminine Mystique.

I don't know much about this, but I'd be interested in seeing some examples of these cases of "more damage than good."

[info]sabonasi

August 20 2007, 10:50:22 UTC 4 years ago

Is The Feminine Mystique good? I've heard of it, but never read it.

As for examples, I'd recommend the book Confessions of an Economic Hitman. I believe the author's name is John Perkins. And I don't have much time to type because I have class soon, so I can't bring up some links now, but here are some examples.

* Forcing Native American children to attend boarding schools in the U.S. I wanna say 1900's and 1800's, but don't quote me there.

* What's going on currently in Australia with the indigineous population being stripped of their income. Supposively, it's to protect the children. Yeah.

* One of the U.S.'s justifications for invading Iraq was to liberate the women there.

[info]liminalia

4 years ago

[info]sabonasi

4 years ago

[info]likeawoman

4 years ago

[info]sabonasi

August 21 2007, 00:37:51 UTC 4 years ago

The Links I Promised

Concerning the situation in Australia: http://community.livejournal.com/debunkingwhite/528037.html#cutid1
http://community.livejournal.com/debunkingwhite/525281.html

Doing more damage than good (about advertising): http://it.stlawu.edu/~spapson/archive/x0mprok/index.html


[info]lucystag

August 20 2007, 08:07:09 UTC 4 years ago

I feel like there must be a difference between actually helping and not ASKING PEOPLE IF THEY WANT YOU TO BUILD THEM A WELL. That's just dumb.

[info]kadaria

August 20 2007, 13:17:09 UTC 4 years ago

I know, the more I look at the situation I can see some call for having that walk. Not just to talk amongst yourselves but maybe also to gather firewood, or get a bearing on your surroundings (I count woodchucks and feral cats when I spread the fields in the morning).

[info]watershed2

August 20 2007, 08:46:21 UTC 4 years ago

I absolutely think it is crucial that change in any place must come out of the desires, leadership, and support of the women (in the case of feminist concerns) of that community.

That said, I don't see anything wrong with staying aware of what is going on for women in other countries. Specifically regarding the last post about India, I think it was made clear that this is a feminist concern being given attention by groups of Indian women.

The case you describe in Kenya was certainly an inappropriate and culturally insensitive/ignorant approach for white American feminists to take. I can see your concern for that issue, but not the problem with posts about global feminist issues--could you maybe cite those you've found problematic specifically?

[info]dimension_view

August 20 2007, 10:04:50 UTC 4 years ago

Historically, white feminists' efforts to help third world women have often done more damage than good.

More examples please, to substantiate your comment.

And oh, I see it a good thing that feminists - among other activists - want to help other people in other nations. Its positive in my book. Of course, it cannot be done in an arrogant way in which the feminists do not look into the issue in an in-depth way.

Azar Nafisi, Liberal Education and the Republic of the imagination

"To fear that you might impose yourself upon others by merely criticizing them is just as bad as the colonials actually imposing themselves on others. It derives from a condescending view of other people. When Ayatollah Khomeini said that all Western women are whores because of the way they look, for example, we did not get so insulted that we wanted to shut him up. Instead, we had so much confidence in ourselves that we did not think he could impose himself upon us. But if we say that Islam does not mean marrying girls at the age of nine, and a Saudi princess tell us, "do not dare criticize our culture, we like it this way," then we are cowed. We become silent. Where does this crude political correctness, this particular form of cultural relativism, come from? If this is allowed in colleges and universities, how does it affect our policy makers, our businesspeople, and the American public in general?"

[info]purplelizzy

August 20 2007, 11:50:21 UTC 4 years ago

Great quote.

[info]kmd

August 20 2007, 10:53:41 UTC 4 years ago

As other posters have commented, and as actual women all over the world both inside the U.S. and out have said and written over and over -- the desire to help is not the problem. Not asking the person you're "helping" what is best IS.

For a really amazingly good exposition of this, see:



[info]kadaria

August 20 2007, 13:18:48 UTC 4 years ago

<3 this video btw and watched it when you originally posted it.

[info]kmd

4 years ago

[info]lavendersparkle

August 20 2007, 11:34:18 UTC 4 years ago

I think the lesson of this is not so much that one should never try to help others from a different culture, but rather that one should attempt to do so from a position of humble solidarity rather than arrogant paternalism. Maybe if the white US feminists had actually talked to the women they were trying to help about their needs, put more effort into trying to genuinely see the world a bit more from the Kenyan women's perspective and, in the end, empowered the women to decide themselves what would be useful for them, they would have been able to really help these women rather than give them an unwanted well.

That said, I think it's fine to discuss with women things that from your perspective you find problematic, as long as you're willing to acknowledge that she is just as likely to have equally valid critiques of your life based upon her experience. Accept that you are both equally capable of independent thought and being brain washed by your surrounding culture. Listen to each other with open minds. Accept that you might have to agree to disagree, but acknowledge that a deep understanding of another person's world view is incredibly valuable.

Deleted comment

[info]aimantselden

August 20 2007, 20:09:22 UTC 4 years ago

I have a few sources to substantiate my claim. Check out an essay by Christine Walley about female genital operations, Under Western Eyes by Chandra Mohanty. What interest would I have in drawing that conclusion from just one story?

Deleted comment

Deleted comment

[info]kadaria

August 20 2007, 13:30:34 UTC 4 years ago

I think white femminists should keep that story in mind when joining groups or offering aid themselves.
However, I don't believe it is typical of all white efforts in the African nations. But that's because I also believe that everyone has something to benefit from clinics, medical professionals and western medicine. Also, I believe it was discussed here at one time that organizations like Peace Corps require you to live with the people you are helping and make sure that your attitude isn't "let's go help those poor pathetic Africans with our great white power".
However I will agree that not all aid is welcomed, well planned, or needed. This is also ancedotal but I have a friend who is a very devout Christian and was very...well very full of herself because she had an oppretunity to go to a rural, poverty stricken area in an African nation (name escapes me) and teach the word of god to all the little children there. And while some may argue that saving souls is important, I found her to be so arrogant about this that it was disgusting. Why was saving souls a higher priority than helping with irrigation equipment, or building solar cookers or helping take care of children at orphanages or helping out in a women's clinic? Or you know, using her teaching degree to teach children mathmatics or reading?

[info]kadaria

August 20 2007, 13:32:51 UTC 4 years ago

Also, here's a neat little movement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cooker#Use_in_Darfur_Refugee_Camps
And if you would like white US femminists to scream about something, let's talk about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_City_Policy

[info]jigsawjazz

August 20 2007, 15:18:16 UTC 4 years ago

This is a really tough issue. On the one hand you don't want to interpret another culture through a lense of western expectations. On the other hand practices like female genital mutilation that are culturally acceptible in some places are intolerable (I feel).

It's also an issue that I don't think I have the background to really discuss, as I haven't read much postcolonial theory, so I'm going to shut up now. But it's definitely something I struggle with, and need to read more about.

In fact, I would appreciate any suggestions of articles I might check out.

[info]sabonasi

August 20 2007, 17:44:16 UTC 4 years ago

I'm 'bout to go nappy-time, but I'll see if I can scrounge up some good links later. Anyway, a couple of things you might want to think about...

1. Question "culturally acceptable". Are there feminist/womanist/activists within the culture looking to change the practice? For instance, I recall reading a while back something about a conference (I think?) where a number of Islamic leaders condemn the practice of FGM. A bit tired at the moment, so I don't recall the details. I'll see if I can find the article on it later today.

2. Understand context. Why something is done, what factors are influencing it, what role does the U.S./Western countries in general play, if a white or Western reporter is bringing light to the issue what are their motivations, does the report have all the facts correct.

3. Know that there are many issues/practices/what have you that are done in western countries, even if they go by a different name. Example: surgery preformed on the genitalia of intersexed infants in the Unite States.

[info]jigsawjazz

August 20 2007, 18:49:22 UTC 4 years ago

Thanks for the thoughts! You make some important points.

I recall reading a while back something about a conference (I think?) where a number of Islamic leaders condemn the practice of FGM

Also the practice was recently banned in Egypt.

surgery preformed on the genitalia of intersexed infants in the Unite States.

Yeah, this is a huge issue. As is the issue of circumsizing men in the west, which I think also amounts to mutilation. I'm definitely not trying to present american culture as more enlightened or progressive than anyone else.

[info]sabonasi

4 years ago

[info]aimantselden

August 20 2007, 20:23:08 UTC 4 years ago

There's actually an article about female genital operations by the anthropologist Christine Walley you might want to look at.

[info]amphibian23

August 20 2007, 21:02:17 UTC 4 years ago

why don't you outline the argument?

[info]chiranka

August 20 2007, 20:59:40 UTC 4 years ago

Would you believe that some women find FGM to be empowering? This journal article, Virtuous Cuts: Female Genital Circumcision in an African Ontology by Rogaia Mustafa Abusharaf, interwiewed a lot of Sudanese women, who are mostly in favor of the practice. It's actually a really fascinating article, since it puts a lot more perspective on the practice than how it's generally presented in the west. For example, it points how the practice may have died off in the 18th or 19th century by itself, except that the colonizers at the time also wanted to eliminate the practice. In short, as an act to maintain some aspect of culture, the Sudanese retained it.

(If you don't have access to Jstore, I can email it to you)

[info]jigsawjazz

4 years ago

[info]ladyvorkosigan

August 21 2007, 00:28:23 UTC 4 years ago

Totally irrelevantly, and just for the sake of idle curiosity, I wonder if there were any disabled or elderly women who were glad to have the closer well. I mean, I'm glad to have a corner store even if I'm generally happy to enjoy the longer walk to the bigger supermarker.

[info]elavari

August 21 2007, 19:48:20 UTC 4 years ago

Your post made me think of this article. The writer didn't talk specifically about feminism, but about the view that many in the west tend to have that we are 'saving' Africa.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/13/AR2007071301714.html?referrer=emailarticle

[info]herkyjerkydance

August 21 2007, 21:28:44 UTC 4 years ago

I agree that when considering practices such as FGM, cultural context needs to be taken into account - like how FGM is part of a rite of passage into womanhood and is laden with all sorts of symbolism, and isn't just getting one's genitals snipped off one day. But on the other hand, just because these practices originate in "other cultures" doesn't mean that they're beyond criticism. "Culture" is hardly static or unchanging, and it's not just Westerners that oppose FGM but also people like Nawal El-Sadaawi, who actually underwent the procedure and now speaks out against it. It's dangerous to talk in terms of "saving Africans" but it's also dangerous to assume that the only "authentic natives" are the ones who have no problem with FGM.

Uma Narayan has some great things to say about how Global South feminists are always considered "inauthentic" and are accused of being "Westernized" whenever they bring up their issues with cultural practices (which are framed as being integral to national/ethnic character, even when they aren't really that widespread).

[info]aredhel_72

August 21 2007, 22:29:04 UTC 4 years ago

I think that these kinds of outcomes have forced a LOT of development groups to acknowledge that their views come from a Western perspective (feminist or not) and to work more closely with the local populations to come up with programs that fit more closely with the issues they're facing. That is, of course, if they're truly capable of being humanitarian in the face of the massive array of neocolonial corporations, countries, and intergovernmental organizations that still dominate development politics and economics.

Criticisms of the Women in Development and Gender and Development approaches cover this nicely, as well as postcolonical, postcolonial feminist, Third World feminists, etc critiques. I think many white feminists didn't know their work would serve to benefit the "evil empire"; most people don't go into development work thinking "I'm going to be a Western-centered imbecile whose work will cripple the local population with whom I work and bend their minds and bodies to the whims of the World Bank/Shell/US/whomever you can think of to put here." At least the word is out now, hopefully changes can be made accordingly. I think there is still a place for the North in the development process, if the arrogant "we always know best" attitude is dropped. However, how this role may play out is the subject of much debate in the wide range of development literature and could be rather complicated.
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